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all 56 comments

[–]UnableMycologist8849 36 points37 points  (2 children)

Perhaps it is against Reddit rules, my account has a warning for providing draft avoidance resources

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

That sucks, man...

[–]WilliamRobutt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How dare you try to avoid the government violating your human rights!!!

Anyway, no surprise, Reddit is satanic.

[–]SidewaysGiraffe 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Officially? Probably not. Practically? Absolutely.

Why not start one and force the issue?

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It just occurred to me to suggest the idea after realizing this is missing, but there is no way I could create a sub and manage it as a mod and such (I'm not that chronically online...)

But the idea is out there now...

[–]ByzantineCat0 9 points10 points  (4 children)

There is one that helps Greek people with the official process of getting an Exemption, but as you can guess it's only for Greece, I'm guessing there's similar regional subs like that.

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Official, unnoficial, whatever, slavery deserves no legitimacy.

[–]Super-Nuntendo 7 points8 points  (2 children)

It's government sanctioned slavery for men only, so it's ok in that instance.

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yep, that's what I hear coming from people, once all the flourish is removed...

[–]ByzantineCat0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you show me the percentage of men that support this form of slavery?

[–]Different-Product-91 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I completely agree with you, it is the worst possible violation of human (men's) rights and I am all in favor of creating one!

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would totally expect a libertarian sub to exist since "Abolish the draft!" is such a common motto in libertarian circles.

But it doesn't, and I feel it's because it's not allowed😕

[–]Top_Row_5116 7 points8 points  (1 child)

This is definitely the thing that angers me the greatest. Selective service... and especially the weak arguments people use to justify it.

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah, man, it's my single biggest gripe with it all, and the single biggest argument to men as legally second-class citizens...

[–]blackmamba4554 7 points8 points  (1 child)

It's a modern day slavery. Not lots of voluntary occupations that feminists don't like. If it's a civic duty, why is it for men only?

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They get to pick and choose.

[–]apokrif1 3 points4 points  (1 child)

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I searched to the best of my ability, but there's no way in hell that I'm going to expose myself to a normie sub where the idea of opposing male slavery is probably considered weird, sorry.

[–]Recent_Cup_6751 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If women were included, conscription would be an issue that would receive massive attention but,...

[–]brainquantum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

FYI, there is this subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchistRight/ where they give the link to a discord called "Join The Liberty Guild", a place where anti-conscription/anti-draft discussions may take place. It is not on reddit but it might be a place to start. I know this is not a "politically neutral" reddit/discord but for this type of topics it becomes difficult to find politically neutral places allowing these discussions

[–]Joey3155 2 points3 points  (4 children)

The easiest way to handle this is wait for a draft to start and refuse to fight the enemy. They can't jail or execute us all. They literally won't have time.

[–]Different-Product-91 0 points1 point  (3 children)

But will there be enough men who will refuse?

[–]Robot_Alchemist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They probably wouldn’t need to do another draft anytime soon

[–]Joey3155 1 point2 points  (1 child)

From what I'm hearing I think so.

[–]Different-Product-91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let us hope for the best!

[–]LateralThinker13 1 point2 points  (2 children)

It's a localized problem to specific countries, and qualifies as an anti-law activity that is proscribed for obvious reasons. Also, most Western nations don't have conscription, and Reddit is heavily Western.

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

*most western nations are not currently at war

[–]LateralThinker13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a few reasons for that, too.

[–]Capital-Box164 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the only sub I know is lwma

[–]Affectionate_Truck69 0 points1 point  (3 children)

There is a group on X, originally it was blocked by the site but its context is opposing conscription in the UK for the Ukraine war. So it's not about the gendered nature of conscription because frankly if the UK does bring it back it will only be for men and they'll find a way to justify it. It's more in the tradition of the anti conscription league before WW1 set up by anarchists like Emma Goldman (that totally failed to stop conscription).

Personally I'm not opposed to it nor to its only applying to men. There are arguments for it but you almost never hear them from any politician and certainly not in a western country because they either cut into official narratives about gender equality or they adopt a "feminist" stance that is punitive towards males that could not be openly advocated by an elected official. For instance I've never seen a mainstream western politician say we have male only conscription to punish men for unequal representation in government or the gender pay gap (although individual activists, academics and journalists may say that)

What's fascinating about it is the way people have to twist themselves into knots to defend it whilst still supporting gender equality (for the paleo types who don't support gender equality it's not an issue but they usually don't have a voice except in spaces like Reddit, X etc. not anywhere "respectable"). It inevitably compounds the unfairness. There was a case brought before the EU Court in 2002 by a German man citing unfairness off the back of cases brought before the same court by women against their governments for discrimination in the military and the court found in favour of the applicants forcing Europe's militaries to open up all roles to women (the result is that you get young female DIs, who are of course volunteers, commanding commanding compelled males of the same age see: https://youtu.be/AKyvhGmbpYs?si=_2UmW147soHppEYb)). Moreover the court also found illegal any programs that assisted conscripted men after demobilization as being unfair to women because the women were not conscripted. The same court however found that male only military service was not unfair Case C-186/01 (Alexander Dory v Bundesrepublik Deutschland). Note in this regard the South Korean courts have also held the "military service bonus point system", that gave discharged conscripts advantage in public sector employment, as illegal because it discriminated against women who did not get get conscripted ("Militarism and Gender Conflict: the Shadow and Conscription in South Korean Society" Friedrich-Ebert Stiftung Asia, 18/11/2024).

BTW I would never advocate it for others since I never had to experience it myself.

According to data from the World Population Website that I reviewed in 2024 around 85 countries out of 179 have conscription and 21 conscript or register both males and females, though not necessarily on the same basis (for instance males may be required to serve longer periods or only males may be required to serve in combat roles or women might do community work). The majority of these countries that include both men and women in compulsory service are on the African continent. But getting further information is a bit murky. Only two countries in the world, Norway and Sweden (and soon Denmark), definitely conscript men and women on equal terms, at least officially, although more men than women are apparently selected. Usually partisans for this or that country will tell you no one is in reality forced. That everyone who goes is there because they want to be. Curious, then why have a system of conscription? It's like they tell you that 2/3 of the men who went to Vietnam from the US were volunteers. Technically true but no one "volunteers", or indeed makes any decision, in a vacuum. There are certain pressures getting you to "volunteer" and that is what these systems are designed to do: impose pressure.

Note that in most systems the whole cohort are not conscripted, it's usually a selection.

On whether opposing conscription including giving information on draft dodging is advocating an unlawful act, that may be true, but it may also be a legitimate form of political protest. A Swiss court has found that ADVOCATING young men refuse military service as a form of political protest in not illegal https://lenews.ch/2023/07/29/top-swiss-court-acquits-climate-activists-that-called-for-army-boycott/

Although obviously actually refusing service will still land you in jail.

As you can see I have looked into this in detail. It's not a popular subject and the usual positions supporting it, on the rare occasions that they are expressed, are fairly predictable falling into categories of paleo/right wing, "feminist", concerns about women's safety (legitimate but not necessarily an argument) and accounting/cost arguments or legal arguments (it's against the constitution). In finishing up I leave you with a somewhat controversial idea that I recently thought of when writing a short story and I put it into the mouth of a male character who had just been demobilized from compulsory army service. I suppose id put it in the paleo/ right wing category. I don't say I necessarily endorse it but I believe it would be persuasive with many people:

Most (heterosexual) women would expect their husband or boyfriend to stand up for them if they were physically threatened, say on the street or at home. Almost no man would expect his woman to physically defend him in return but they would certainly consider it their responsibility to protect their woman. If a man saw a woman being attacked on the street, even if he did not know her, there would be an expectation that he should if possible try to intervene and indeed many men would do so even at personal risk to themselves. If a man expects women to defend him from physical threats then what sort of man is he? Doesn’t the same apply in war? Most men would expect other men to do their bit to stand up and fight if the nation were threatened. A man failing to do so would usually be regarded as letting the team down. Perhaps even as a contemptible coward. They wouldn’t have the same expectation of women. That, of course, does not mean that women cannot be conscripted but for non combat roles, which is in fact what happens for instance in the Israeli army where women, despite being conscripted, only serve in combat if they volunteer to do so

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Cool. Do you have any info as if any country ever, with equal terms on conscription for men an women, has actually kept it once actual war breaks out?

As for your little story you brought up: I am not an ant.

[–]Affectionate_Truck69 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The only two countries that have EQUAL conscription are Norway which has had it for some time and Sweden since 2018.. I don't believe any other Countries have had equal conscription in all of history. Neither country has been to war since they introduced it. As to all the others I don't know in what capacity women were used. They were used for civil conscription in the UK in WW2 and also for non combat military service. Israel obviously but there are limitations on women's participation in combat but they can serve if they wish and some have died. Others I don't know. North Korea has it but I don't believe any woman were sent to Kursk to help out Putin. They probably only do home defence.

Others like the ones in Africa are a bit murky. For example Eritrea I think has been at war with Ethiopia but I don't know how Eritrean women conscripts were deployed if at all.

Don't know what you mean by not being an ant but if you're saying that ppl don't act like animals, I'm not so sure. I think (straight) men are just hard wired to protect women

[–]asdfghv123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sweden have gender neutral conscription-laws since 2010 but conscription was reintroduced 2017 for everyone (abolished for eveyone between 2010 and 2017).

Denmark also have a gender neutral conscription law since this year.

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway -4 points-3 points  (19 children)

Unpopular opinion:

I believe that every man should serve. The issue isn't being forced to serve.

You live in that land. It protects you and provides for you. If it doesn't, then that service should be in changing it, until it does protect you and provide for you. We men carry that burden in life. Any time you are in a social organization, we have duties to that society.

The problem is, now days, it's like we are forced to those duties, yet that system is stacked greatly against us. That's why men have problems with forced service. Because we're being expected to serve a country that isn't serving us.

In nature, the unspoken rule is that everyone carries their weight. Everyone contributes. When things are unbalanced, things get balanced one way or the other.

In today's society, there are certain groups that are getting free stuff, freeloading off of many others. There will always be those that can't. But, there is so much freeloading, by able bodied people, that it's causing heavy strain on those that are working. So, to be asked to do more, to sacrifice more, for those, is quite disrespectful. The answer should be to hold those accountable, that aren't pulling their weight.

[–]Joey3155 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Very unpopular opinion. These 304s are not worth fighting, dying, and going to hell for.

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree.

[–]Capital-Box164 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I wouldon't say 304s, but I would just say the soil you're standing on in general. IF you're in the UK, Keir Starmer with his rectangular face wants you dead just because you have a y chromosome.

[–]Joey3155 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Modern women in general aren't worth dying for. I say 304 becsuse that is what 95% of women are because that is what mainstream culture encouraged them to be with feminism and the death of traditional values.

[–]Capital-Box164 0 points1 point  (1 child)

True, but I don't think dying for the country is worth it either.

I don't know. I've seen a lot of videos about a female's bodycount going over 10

[–]Joey3155 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree the country ain't worth catching the devil's hands for eternity either.

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Stockholm Syndrome.

[–]iAmTheBombSquad7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree 100% with this take as long as women are doing at least 1/2 of it. I'll also help with their emotional labour if they help my with the ACTUAL labour.

[–]Capital-Box164 0 points1 point  (8 children)

You serve first, then talk to us

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Already done.

[–]Capital-Box164 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Okay, then why shouldon't females serve?

[–]Capital-Box164 0 points1 point  (5 children)

btw frontline combat or support/general

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

Front line, it's been proven that women cannot cut it. For various reasons. Mainly because men have more strength, so women can't physically carry what they need in combat. Further, men deal with battle stress differently, and are better able to cope and make it. Whereas, women can't. The big media coverage women's groups have been reported to collapse in battle, crying and freezing up. So, they were pulled from front line. There are some women that can be, but it's very rare. Apparently far more rare than in men.

For support, i think they should. But, many women just aren't cut out for the military. They run on feelings. And the military only runs effectively when it's competent, and merit based. The further it gets from those factors, the more it's effectiveness collapses. That's why politics ruins the military effectiveness. Women being there does similar, because many policies must be implemented to coddle to them. For the few women that can cut it, great. But many just can't.

[–]Capital-Box164 2 points3 points  (3 children)

What about all the strong independent females? They can do anything a man can do.

Not a lot of countries conscript females for support roles

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Lol that was never my argument. "Strong independent" females are full of bs. My argument was simply that I think all men should serve. And my main reasons really don't have anything to do with what I responded with. But you asked for those answers. So I gave them. But they are the results of men serving, not why I think they should serve.

Not a lot of countries conscript females for support roles

Yeah, and I'd claim for good reason. I don't think women should be forced to serve. I don't think it helps in any way to do so. I do however think men should. I can foresee certain downsides. But I believe the pros far outweigh the cons

(Edit, add:)

Of course I mean men that are able to. But I also think men in wheelchairs and such could be great in support roles (desk work, clerical, analysis, etc etc). But not every man can. That's to be expected. I just mean every man that can, should

[–]Capital-Box164 2 points3 points  (1 child)

 I don't think women should be forced to serve.

Idk, this gives me a lot of: "sperm is cheap" vibes.

When you say "all men" I know you're not referring to disabled men, but it does give off a feeling of "useless men should be thrown into a pit of lava"

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then you are searching for reasons to dismiss or disagree. Your responses are giving vibes of "i want to demonize him, I just can't find any reason to directly". Sounds like a you issue.

When you say "all men" I know you're not referring to disabled men, but it does give off a feeling of "useless men should be thrown into a pit of lava"

I did address that very comment, I edited my response to add that very subject. I think even those with physical disabilities should, if they can.

but it does give off a feeling of "useless men should be thrown into a pit of lava"

Nothing in what I said has any mention, reference, or inference to that message or claim. That is 100% your bias talking. In no way would I make such an argument.

[–]Different-Product-91 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

"It protects you and provides for you." It's the other way round.

[–]UWontHearMeAnyway 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Read to understand, not to respond. What did I type directly after that? Lol people like you love downvoting to disagree, but you're not comprehending what I'm typing. Think before you respond.

[–]Door_Holder2 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I did it, yes, it caused me some small but permanent injuries and the conditions were like a good prison in my opinion, a unique experience worth having in your life overall. It's not against the Reddit rules but definitely it's on a gray area that is better for Reddit to avoid.

For me the important question is: Why not?

What makes you think you are so special to be "free"? I don't agree with sacrificing myself or work like a slave for the benefits of few politicians, but when in human history were things any different? In my observation now people are way more free than ever. As you can see I don't like to think about how things should be but how they are and what could realistically change.

[–]BreakGrouchy -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I’d fight it under equal rights . If they drafted women at their population percentage you would probably stand less than 50% chance . You get no benefits from being sent to war while women don’t die and can push women’s agendas at their population percentage poles .

[–]MeasurementNice295[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Equal slavery is still slavery, sorry.

And that will obviously never happen, they may pretend it will but will bail out women at the first oportunity when actual war breaks out.